Here it comes........

[spence]

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

[BigFish]

They don't currently draft men either but that too could change. (Besides...it was a joke)

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by spence

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Spence, that was perfectly put. Let's hope real hard.

[BigFish]

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

[spence]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy???

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

So what would you do to stop terroism and keep radical muslims from attacking the US? Obviosly the pre 9/11 liberal policies failed us. What is your solution to the problem?

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

I didn't catagorize anybody, but if the shoe fits...

-spence

[mekcotuit]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

I don't think Spence is labelling all conservatives or Republicans as neocons. Neocon is different animal: Cheney family, Kristol family, Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Abrams, Robert Kagan, Richard Perle, Doug Feith- the foreign policy makers in the Bush admin.

from: http://alternet.org/story/15481/"Contrary to appearances, the neoconservatives do not represent a political movement, but a small, exclusive club with incestuous familial and personal connections. Neoconservatives are former liberals (which explains the "neo" prefix) who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global supremacy, which includes a close strategic alliance with Israel. "

[spence]

I don't think the "former liberal" description is that accurate, though I've seen it thrown around.

For sure some of the "early" neoconservative thinkers were former socialists, but the current crop were more intellectual conservatives that rejected the liberalisim of the Vietnam war.

Funny thing is that so many Goldwater and Reagan conservatives (including perhaps Bush 43) are just now realizing that they've been duped into aligning themselves with the neoconservatives simply because they saw liberal democrats as the only other alternative.

There is a tremendous number of disenfranchised moderates out there looking for leadership.

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

[mekcotuit]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

How is this for "pre 9/11 mentality, or should I say mental illness:

President Bush on Thursday defended his administration's decision to allow a company from an Arab country to operate six major U.S. ports, saying, "People don't need to worry about security."

"This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security of the United States of America," Bush told reporters during a Cabinet meeting.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism...You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.

We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.


We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians. You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?

[striperman36]

Nastrodamus was right

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians. You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?

Skippy, if you get fat and your girlfriend tells you are fat...are you going to deny it, or reflect on the things that made you fat and alter your behavior so you don't get more fat?

Doesn't mean you can't have some ice cream, but the pizza and 6 pack dinners have got to go.

I remember reading in the late 1990's how radical Islam was actually on the decline around the world. The main sources of violence in Palestine and Chechnya had more to do with politics than religion.

To destroy terrorists we need to.

A - Lead by example - to spread democracy we need to abide by the rule of law ourselves, respect the dignity of human life and operate transparently and honestly as much as possible...to both the world and the American people.

B - Strive toward energy independence and a balanced budget to limit the influence of nations like Saudia Arabia and others.

C - Develop global coalitions to strengthen a unified position. China and Russia currently have more to gain from Iran's current leadership than if we initiated reform through military force.

D - When we do get a line on real terrorists, let the bullets fly.

The simple fact is that mass bombing and actions that seem to randomly dehumanize will create a net gain in the terrorist population. We need to extinguish the fire by cutting off the oxygen instead of fanning the flames...

Given the wheels that are in motion right now, Mike P may just be right...hold on.

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

I think thats an unfair comparison, although I agree with your point.
Germany suffered Humuliation in WW1, and were starving literally for anyone that could take charge and lead their country. Hitler was in the right place at the right time, and seized the opportunity.Once in power ,it was impossible for the PEOPLE to remove him. The rest is history. This is the whole point. Once a dictator is in a position of such IMMENSE power, he cant be VOTED out. You have to physically remove him.
Germans are a civilized people, WW2 is in the past & they have been more than contrite IMO, much like slavery is in the past for us here in the good ol USA. Their History is more than you & I could read about in a lifetime, comparing the people of Germany(at any time in history) to these animals in the middle east ? Please, I would not even dignify that with a response.
WE(US, EUROPE et al) ARE more civilized,so why cant we just come out and FREAKING say it. If WE dont find a resolution, WHO WILL ??
Can someone answer that one question for me and I will shut up.

[Mike P]

Is anyone still wondering why Bush 41---who's forgotten more about world affairs than his son ever learned---left Saddam in power after liberating Kuwait? For all of the bad advice W got, the best advice he could have received was from his Dad, and he didn't listen to it

When you have a country made up of ethnicities/cultures who historically hate each others' guts, only a brutal dictator can hold it together--look what happened in the Balkans after Tito died.

That being said--a reckoning with Iran has been brewing since 1979. Now that we've removed the natural counterweight to their influence in the region, it's inevitable that our military will have to pay that price. The day we leave Iraq, is the day the Revolutionary Guards march south, and it plays out just like Tom Clancy depicted it in one of his books--a "United Islamic Republic" and the whole region goes kablooey.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by spence

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

Well, no actually. Congress didn't vote to go to war, they voted to allow the President to use force to protect the country if necessary and if the Admin could prove that Saddam had WMD and links to al Qaida.

It's pretty clear today they were led just like the rest of us. Did they ask the difficult questions and provide the proper oversight? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they were complicit.

-spence

[Raven]

concerning the mosque.....see that particular building being as old as it was...(and our government realizes the signifigance of it but many do not) it was the fabled place that mohamed ...their version of jesus was supposed to return to....and ironically the other shrine where jesus is foretold to return is nearby.... i believe
...i saw a whole program on these ideology's on the history channel.. and bigfish and whoever else...
Bush has already lost control regardless if anythings his fault or not.
the destruction of the mosque was a particularly huge milestone!
this EVENT has totally changed the landscape of religious power.

what i'm wondering is: what our position is (militarilly) when the Civil war just explodes because we cannot take sides in a secular war....

we're only there to fight the terrorist's...the jhadists...insurgents.

and i'm in agreement of a pull back....not a shove in.....with a draft.

Flaptail : whats your idea concerning the Civil war scenario?