34 shot

[Pete F.]

Tweety's plan to demonstrate that he is a law and order guy by instituting a national police force is pretty scary.

“A standing military force with an overgrown executive will not long be safe companions to liberty,” James Madison told the Constitutional Convention. “The means of defense against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.”

Riot control is nothing new and attacking a crowd typically does nothing other than add a new thing (the police) they are against in addition to their original objective. In this case since police are viewed as the original problem by protesters, the very people that protesters are concerned about are validating their opinions by attacking them.

There are proven methods that have been used for years, nothing works perfectly but the attack method has been proven to have a great chance to escalate and spread the problem.

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/feature...a-new-paradigm

[nightfighter]

I reached out via email to an old college girlfriend who lives in Portland. She always was crunchy granola type, but here is a condensed version of her response;

We are a feisty bunch- and rebellious and independent. And so we do not want the !@#$%^&*( Feds messing with our protests. Yes we are fine - we are all at home! Although my daughter and I are going to go join the wall of moms that are lining up to protect the protestors. There are the protestors (good) and the rioters (bad)- but the Feds being here is very bad news PDX will not back down. Our city is a mess though- all boarded up and graffiti everywhere....tough times


This is from a well educated 60 year old Oregon native woman, with adult kids, who has lived abroad in Asia as her husband's job in finance took them to many financial capitals and last I knew, he was with the Federal Reserve... Not what I expected, but that is my ground zero report.... My response simply pointed out their plan of action had some glaring holes in it.... like bring a water bottle to a gunfight.

On a different note, my new 2A4life shoulder holster has shipped!

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Tweety's plan to demonstrate that he is a law and order guy by instituting a national police force is pretty scary.

“A standing military force with an overgrown executive will not long be safe companions to liberty,” James Madison told the Constitutional Convention. “The means of defense against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.”

Riot control is nothing new and attacking a crowd typically does nothing other than add a new thing (the police) they are against in addition to their original objective. In this case since police are viewed as the original problem by protesters, the very people that protesters are concerned about are validating their opinions by attacking them.

There are proven methods that have been used for years, nothing works perfectly but the attack method has been proven to have a great chance to escalate and spread the problem.

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/feature...a-new-paradigm

They are not a standing military force. They are federal agents from DHS and other federal law enforcement departmens. And they are protecting federal property and federal personnel, not the entire city. They are not there to stop the rioting or clean up the city of crime. They are there to protect federal property from vandalization and destruction by the rioters, and to protect federal personnel.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by detbuch

They are not a standing military force. They are federal agents from DHS and other federal law enforcement departmens. And they are protecting federal property and federal personnel, not the entire city. They are not there to stop the rioting or clean up the city of crime. They are there to protect federal property from vandalization and destruction by the rioters, and to protect federal personnel.

Do you have a list of the federal properties they are protecting? Or perhaps a statement of their specific mission? Just asking as this would be value added to the discussion for those of us trying to make a value judgement from thousands of miles away.

[nightfighter]

And, getting back to what I believe was the OP; Whoever or what side made the dumbass decision to release violent convicted felons from incarceration due to concerns about COVID 19, has a lot of answering to do... as well as a lot of blood on their hands. The Boston Police Commish came right out with this very point as being the source of the recent increase in shootings in his city.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Do you have a list of the federal properties they are protecting? Or perhaps a statement of their specific mission? Just asking as this would be value added to the discussion for those of us trying to make a value judgement from thousands of miles away.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...deral-property

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

You probably don’t hear much about it on your news sources. I guess the 1900 shooting victims to date this year are faux concerns also..🤯

Aug. 6, 2018: 74 people shot, 12 fatally, in Chicago over the weekend

I2018. In total, the year saw an estimated 2,391 shootings with 2,948 shooting victims, police said. In 2017, there were 2,777 shootings and in 2016 there were 3,550.


Funny Trump didn't send any one in any of these years so yea faux concerns...


Can you say election

[nightfighter]

Thank you.

Some things still missing from the narrative though...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Our city is a mess though- all boarded up and graffiti everywhere....tough times

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

If it wasn't for Chicago conservatives wouldn't have anything to complain about. It's the same every year every summer ... and they have been using it for decades and it's always a distraction from the issue of the day. Sprinkled With faux concerns...

Are you kidding? Seattle, Baltimore, Detroit, ST Louis...

The question isn't why do conservatives continue to bring these things up. the question is, why do liberals do everything they can, to avoid talking about what's happening in these cities, and why? answer - talking about gang violence and its actual causes, doesn't help democrats win elections...

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

They are not a standing military force. They are federal agents from DHS and other federal law enforcement departments. And they are protecting federal property and federal personnel, not the entire city. They are not there to stop the rioting or clean up the city of crime. They are there to protect federal property from vandalization and destruction by the rioters, and to protect federal personnel.

So then you are claiming they are just the Graffiti Gestapo.
The jackbooted thugs that the right has claimed for years will take away your rights with no due process or recourse have arrived and they are the President's men.
They have snatched people off the streets of the city, refused to identify themselves, and detained people without charges.
The local elected politicians have asked them to leave, all of the sudden you claim that the man who is not responsible for the safety of American citizens in the case of a virus is responsible for the prevention of property crimes throughout the States.

Chad Wolf, who has not been confirmed by the Senate to serve in the job he has held since he replaced another Acting Secretary of Homeland Security last November, went to Portland last week to personally oversee the operation. He claims that the officers are targeting “violent anarchists” who he blames for spray-painting graffiti on some federal buildings (while stretching the definition of “violent” beyond all logic).

Ask yourself, just what crime did this man commit?

Everything he did was within his First Amendment rights and he was assaulted by the Graffiti Gestapo.

[Sea Dangles]

When you refuse to follow orders then it is hickory shampoo time.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Are you kidding? Seattle, Baltimore, Detroit, ST Louis...

The question isn't why do conservatives continue to bring these things up. the question is, why do liberals do everything they can, to avoid talking about what's happening in these cities, and why? answer - talking about gang violence and its actual causes, doesn't help democrats win elections...

Jim its only in your imagination that Conservatives even care...Aug. 6, 2018: 74 people shot, 12 fatally, in Chicago over the weekend

I2018. In total, the year saw an estimated 2,391 shootings with 2,948 shooting victims, police said. In 2017, there were 2,777 shootings and in 2016 there were 3,550.


Funny Trump didn't send any one in any of these years so yea faux concerns...


Can you say election

I have no illusions.. dems dont avoid talking about whats happening because it happen every year and has been for decades ... I just love the revisionist view conservatives have on the topic

[Pete F.]

Chad Wolf has never been confirmed by the Senate to be DHS Sec’y. He’s been the acting sec’y longer than the Vacancies Act permits. This is one of the ways Trump destroys democratic institutions, putting people in key roles whose loyalty is to him, not the Constitution.
Acts authorized by someone in an office in violation of the Vacancies Act are void ab initio. That can be enforced by a lawsuit brought by a private party.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So then you are claiming they are just the Graffiti Gestapo.

No. I claimed they were federal agents protecting federal property--in response to your inaccurate portrayal "Tweety's plan to demonstrate that he is a law and order guy by instituting a national police force is pretty scary.

“A standing military force with an overgrown executive will not long be safe companions to liberty,” James Madison told the Constitutional Convention. “The means of defense against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.”

Trump was not instituting a national police force. The various federal agents being used were instituted before Trump. And invoking the standing military force quote by Madison was stretching it too far beyond its meaning to apply here.

I don't know what Madison would have thought of having an FBI or a DHS or an ICE. Then there is the Insurrection Act.

But those are different discussions.

The jackbooted thugs that the right has claimed for years will take away your rights with no due process or recourse have arrived and they are the President's men.
They have snatched people off the streets of the city, refused to identify themselves, and detained people without charges.
The local elected politicians have asked them to leave, all of the sudden you claim that the man who is not responsible for the safety of American citizens in the case of a virus is responsible for the prevention of property crimes throughout the States.

Chad Wolf, who has not been confirmed by the Senate to serve in the job he has held since he replaced another Acting Secretary of Homeland Security last November, went to Portland last week to personally oversee the operation. He claims that the officers are targeting “violent anarchists” who he blames for spray-painting graffiti on some federal buildings (while stretching the definition of “violent” beyond all logic).

Ask yourself, just what crime did this man commit?

Everything he did was within his First Amendment rights and he was assaulted by the Graffiti Gestapo.

I don't know what crime he committed. The video doesn't show what he did or didn't do nor what he was saying. It could well be that he did nothing wrong and was unjustly beaten.

But this mantra about peaceful protesting being the object of police brutality or federal law enforcement doesn't square with a lot of what actually has been going on. There are, undeniably, riots and violence going on and have been going on for nearly two months. And there is no evidence that it will stop merely by letting it go unimpeded.

You're portrayal is quite different than what is reported by law enforcement. Overall, throughout the country, a lot of police officers, and federal agents have been injured, many severly, several killed. A great deal of property has been destroyed. Citizens have been injured or killed.

Saying it's merely about graffiti is absurd. Emphasizing the supposed peaceful nature is getting old. And saying its about the death of Floyd, or police brutality wears thin when we hear the words of the leaders, when they can be identified. There is something far more radical fueling this prolonged and destructive behavior.

[spence]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

I reached out via email to an old college girlfriend who lives in Portland. She always was crunchy granola type, but here is a condensed version of her response;

We are a feisty bunch- and rebellious and independent. And so we do not want the !@#$%^&*( Feds messing with our protests. Yes we are fine - we are all at home! Although my daughter and I are going to go join the wall of moms that are lining up to protect the protestors. There are the protestors (good) and the rioters (bad)- but the Feds being here is very bad news PDX will not back down. Our city is a mess though- all boarded up and graffiti everywhere....tough times

I spoke with several friends in Seattle and they had a similar perspective on the CHOP. Although the mom response in Portland is pretty remarkable.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Tweety's plan to demonstrate that he is a law and order guy by instituting a national police force is pretty scary.

“[/url]

So tell us, the president is supposed to do nothing when state officials choose not to ensure public safety, and worse, actively side with the violent mob?

When the supreme court ordered Arkansas schools desegregated, the Arkansas governor ordered the National Guard to keep blacks out of the white school. Eisenhower immediately sent in the 101st Airborne, armed to the teeth, to march the black students past the National Guardsmen.

Pete, was Ike wrong to do so?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Jim its only in your imagination that Conservatives even care...Aug. 6, 2018: 74 people shot, 12 fatally, in Chicago over the weekend

I2018. In total, the year saw an estimated 2,391 shootings with 2,948 shooting victims, police said. In 2017, there were 2,777 shootings and in 2016 there were 3,550.


Funny Trump didn't send any one in any of these years so yea faux concerns...


Can you say election

I have no illusions.. dems dont avoid talking about whats happening because it happen every year and has been for decades ... I just love the revisionist view conservatives have on the topic

"Jim its only in your imagination that Conservatives even care.'

Is it my imagination that conservatives embrace the exact policies that will reduce the cycle of poverty and violence in cities like Chicago? Specifically, strong traditional families, the benefit of faith, school choice, good jobs with upward economic mobility? AM I imagining it that democrats oppose these ideas? Am I imagining it that democrats have an obvious vested interest in making sure that huge numbers of impoverished people continue to live in cities, since 95% of them vote democrat? That's all in my head? Interesting.

Please answer this specifically...is it only in my imagination that at the last SOTU, republicans were wildly celebrating the lowest black unemployment ever, while democrats were miserable about that fact? What's your response to that, exactly? Is that what happened? And if so, why? Why didn't the democrats see low black unemployment as a cause for celebration?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So tell us, the president is supposed to do nothing when state officials choose not to ensure public safety, and worse, actively side with the violent mob?

When the supreme court ordered Arkansas schools desegregated, the Arkansas governor ordered the National Guard to keep blacks out of the white school. Eisenhower immediately sent in the 101st Airborne, armed to the teeth, to march the black students past the National Guardsmen.

Pete, was Ike wrong to do so?

Based on the request from the local authority to provide assistance.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Based on the request from the local authority to provide assistance.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

the governor was the one
ordering the
national guard to
ensure
continued racism.

do you have any evidence that ike only did what he did, because locals
asked?

in the case of the riots, in some cases,,local authorities are clearly siding with the rioters. so they aren’t going to then ask for federal help.

the president doesn’t have the responsibility to protect citizens at home? do you really believe that? or only when the rioters are liberal and the president is a republican?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Jim its only in your imagination that Conservatives even care.'

Is it my imagination that conservatives embrace the exact policies that will reduce the cycle of poverty and violence in cities like Chicago? Specifically, strong traditional families, the benefit of faith, school choice, good jobs with upward economic mobility? AM I imagining it that democrats oppose these ideas? Am I imagining it that democrats have an obvious vested interest in making sure that huge numbers of impoverished people continue to live in cities, since 95% of them vote democrat? That's all in my head? Interesting.

Please answer this specifically...is it only in my imagination that at the last SOTU, republicans were wildly celebrating the lowest black unemployment ever, while democrats were miserable about that fact? What's your response to that, exactly? Is that what happened? And if so, why? Why didn't the democrats see low black unemployment as a cause for celebration?

Yes jim its fantasy conservatives embrace the exact policies that will reduce the cycle of poverty and violence in cities... love to see this policy


Specifically, strong traditional families, the benefit of faith, school choice, good jobs with upward economic mobility? Jim you cant mandate those things in a policy is a wish list ... your kool aid delusional

And here we go again with the lowest black unemployment Jim you do understand that high tide floats all boats .... nothing was done by Trump to help blacks directly, now he takes credit for unintentional consequences, because if makes him look good... but glad to see you silent on his covid unintentional consequences but black unemployment

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Yes jim its fantasy conservatives embrace the exact policies that will reduce the cycle of poverty and violence in cities... love to see this policy


Specifically, strong traditional families, the benefit of faith, school choice, good jobs with upward economic mobility? Jim you cant mandate those things in a policy is a wish list ... your kool aid delusional

And here we go again with the lowest black unemployment Jim you do understand that high tide floats all boats .... nothing was done by Trump to help blacks directly, now he takes credit for unintentional consequences, because if makes him look good... but glad to see you silent on his covid unintentional consequences but black unemployment

you can absolutely mandate school
choice. as to encouraging families, obviously you can’t mandate it, but you can encourage it ( which conservatives tend to do) or you can mock it and say masculinity is toxic ( which liberals tend to do). you deny that?

“nothing was done by trump
to help
blacks directly”. they were helped as everyone else was helped, duh. you don’t comment on why democrats were saddened by low black
unemployment.

i’m not silent on covid, i give poor grades to all who
encouraged stupid behavior.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

“Defending anonymous tactical units gassing, beating, and snatching people off the streets of Portland and shoving them into unmarked vans” is a strange hill for conservatism to die on, but that’s what has become of the Republican Party under Tweety
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Although the mom response in Portland is pretty remarkable.

they didn't want their little juvenile delinquents to get arrested...doesn't make them good parents or model citizens

[scottw]

start em' young...really need to get these kids back into school

Armed kids as young as 10 carjack more than a dozen people on South Side, police say

Published 1 day ago CHICAGO Sun-Times Media Wire

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

It sounds like the amount of vandalism hasn't been that widespread. The local police were handling it but also infringing on the rights of the majority of peaceful protesters. Since the secret police have shown up it looks like it has gotten a lot worse.

This is mostly a PR stunt, potentially illegal and people are getting hurt because of it.

They are not secret - they have shoulder patches and police on them. We can have a well reasoned discussion on: whether or not we should send in federal law enforcement dressed in Army kit, protecting Federal property (that local elected officials are not), whether or not to HAVE police forces dressed up in combat kit, allowing protesting but not allowing riots / vandalism / destruction, and the wilful abdication of local elected officials that would not let local law enforcement handle it.

Originally Posted by nightfighter

I reached out via email to an old college girlfriend who lives in Portland. She always was crunchy granola type, but here is a condensed version of her response;

We are a feisty bunch- and rebellious and independent. And so we do not want the !@#$%^&*( Feds messing with our protests. Yes we are fine - we are all at home! Although my daughter and I are going to go join the wall of moms that are lining up to protect the protestors. There are the protestors (good) and the rioters (bad)- but the Feds being here is very bad news PDX will not back down. Our city is a mess though- all boarded up and graffiti everywhere....tough times


This is from a well educated 60 year old Oregon native woman, with adult kids, who has lived abroad in Asia as her husband's job in finance took them to many financial capitals and last I knew, he was with the Federal Reserve... Not what I expected, but that is my ground zero report.... My response simply pointed out their plan of action had some glaring holes in it.... like bring a water bottle to a gunfight.

On a different note, my new 2A4life shoulder holster has shipped!

I watched videos last night of these punks trying to light Federal Courthouse on fire.

Originally Posted by wdmso

Aug. 6, 2018: 74 people shot, 12 fatally, in Chicago over the weekend

I2018. In total, the year saw an estimated 2,391 shootings with 2,948 shooting victims, police said. In 2017, there were 2,777 shootings and in 2016 there were 3,550.


Funny Trump didn't send any one in any of these years so yea faux concerns...


Can you say election

He threatened to send in Federal Law enforcement.

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Ask yourself, just what crime did this man commit?

Everything he did was within his First Amendment rights and he was assaulted by the Graffiti Gestapo.

He was told to leave several times, went up to the police to discuss what they were doing, was told to leave, and they (somewhat stupidly) thwacked him a few times. He wanted to see these "most are vets, but by their predominate sleeve tats, most were enlisted f vcks" . A true champion of class politics.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

start em' young...really need to get these kids back into school

Armed kids as young as 10 carjack more than a dozen people on South Side, police say

Published 1 day ago CHICAGO Sun-Times Media Wire

That's some good parenting right there.

[scottw]

it's for a good cause and...it was ruled a covid death

Investigators have discovered the charred remains of a body in a Minneapolis pawn shop that was set ablaze in the riots after the death of George Floyd, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported on Tuesday.

The building that housed the pawn shop, Max It Pawn, was burned to the ground on May 28. Agents from the Minneapolis Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives found the body while following up on an anonymous tip.


The riots following the death of Floyd have caused roughly $500 million in damage to Minneapolis businesses, according to Minnesota governor Tim Walz.


500 million ....so peaceful

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

it's for a good cause and...it was ruled a covid death

Investigators have discovered the charred remains of a body in a Minneapolis pawn shop that was set ablaze in the riots after the death of George Floyd, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported on Tuesday.

The building that housed the pawn shop, Max It Pawn, was burned to the ground on May 28. Agents from the Minneapolis Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives found the body while following up on an anonymous tip.


The riots following the death of Floyd have caused roughly $500 million in damage to Minneapolis businesses, according to Minnesota governor Tim Walz.


500 million ....so peaceful

And in some cases (like with Gov Cuomo), these protests are allowed, while high school graduations and church services are cancelled. Makes all kinds of sense...

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by JohnR

He was told to leave several times, went up to the police to discuss what they were doing, was told to leave, and they (somewhat stupidly) thwacked him a few times. He wanted to see these "most are vets, but by their predominate sleeve tats, most were enlisted f vcks" . A true champion of class politics.

He was standing on the street, he was not threatening anyone and he was assaulted by the goons in uniform without cause. They look and act more like Blackwater thugs to my eye, certainly not professionals trained in crowd control.

Since you are making the claim that he is politically incorrect and should be canceled, do you have a source for what looks like a quote of Christopher David?
In the interviews I have seen that statement does not match his speech or demeanor.