Logic 101 quiz

[JohnR]

For two years we screamed under needing to wait for conclusions in the Mueller Report.

It came and it was underwhelming. I do suspect Trump did something wrong and illegal which means there is no difference than his competition or predecessors.

The Mueller Report did not deliver anything earth shattering, damning, nor apparently something to prosecute with.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by JohnR

For two years we screamed under needing to wait for conclusions in the Mueller Report.

It came and it was underwhelming. I do suspect Trump did something wrong and illegal which means there is no difference than his competition or predecessors.

The Mueller Report did not deliver anything earth shattering, damning, nor apparently something to prosecute with.

I'm surprised you think it's underwhelming John, especially in light of the extent the Russians went to in order to hurt one candidate and help another get elected; that part everyone seems to be glossing right over. Did the investigation proof Trump and his campaign staff didn't actively conspire with the Russians sure, but it also pointed out they didn't turn to the FBI every time they were offered help either. Trump even went so far as to encourage hacking on national TV, there's real patriotic act by someone running for president.

So sure no collusion, but volume 2 clearly is where the rubber meets the road and that part may be his downfall. Funny you say Trump may have down "something" wrong, when volume 2 details numerous things he did wrong, but I guess if you believe he is no worse than any other president in the past you are entitled to that opinion. If this is the new norm, we are in trouble people.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I'm surprised you think it's underwhelming John, especially in light of the extent the Russians went to in order to hurt one candidate and help another get elected; that part everyone seems to be glossing right over. Did the investigation proof Trump and his campaign staff didn't actively conspire with the Russians sure, but it also pointed out they didn't turn to the FBI every time they were offered help either. Trump even went so far as to encourage hacking on national TV, there's real patriotic act by someone running for president.

So sure no collusion, but volume 2 clearly is where the rubber meets the road and that part may be his downfall. Funny you say Trump may have down "something" wrong, when volume 2 details numerous things he did wrong, but I guess if you believe he is no worse than any other president in the past you are entitled to that opinion. If this is the new norm, we are in trouble people.

weren’t russians also behind the Steele dossier? who was that designed to help?
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I'm surprised you think it's underwhelming John, especially in light of the extent the Russians went to in order to hurt one candidate and help another get elected; that part everyone seems to be glossing right over. Did the investigation proof Trump and his campaign staff didn't actively conspire with the Russians sure, but it also pointed out they didn't turn to the FBI every time they were offered help either. Trump even went so far as to encourage hacking on national TV, there's real patriotic act by someone running for president.

I am not surprised that is your response, that is the response a lot of well intentioned people have.

Here are some historical notes: choose to do with them what you will, but I would highly suggest you go over Russian history for the past 300 years. Russia has been lying, "hacking", influencing, and sabotaging other countries positions and governments, and when available elections, for over 300 years. It is what they do.

From the 1200s up into the times of the Great Game they did this to their nearby neighbors.

In the Great Game they conquered or stole or influenced their expansion south and east through the Caucuses, the Stans, the steppes, and eventually to the Pacific. They have played games with all of Europe, Asia before we even fought among ourselves.

From their revolution on they have been aligning with progressives and worker's parties in the US with varying levels of success, all the way up until heavy influence in the pre WW2 times and other than a small decade when they were licking their wounds, back again with the 60s through today.

This is what they do.

Frankly, I find it somewhat insulting that all of the people that complain about it now after ignoring it forever are often the same people that rush to McCain's defense now yet pilloried him prior to Trump.

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

So sure no collusion, but volume 2 clearly is where the rubber meets the road and that part may be his downfall. Funny you say Trump may have down "something" wrong, when volume 2 details numerous things he did wrong, but I guess if you believe he is no worse than any other president in the past you are entitled to that opinion. If this is the new norm, we are in trouble people.

I believe that when the Media, in lockstep with the Democratic party, makes a moderate with some level of integrity like Romney into the next Hitler, that we reap what we have sown. We have lost the middle, with both sides going more extreme and more and more out of balance. This looks like there is little chance to correct this imbalance. The future is terrifying.

Trump wasn't the cause, he was the result.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I am not surprised that is your response, that is the response a lot of well intentioned people have.

Here are some historical notes: choose to do with them what you will, but I would highly suggest you go over Russian history for the past 300 years. Russia has been lying, "hacking", influencing, and sabotaging other countries positions and governments, and when available elections, for over 300 years. It is what they do.

From the 1200s up into the times of the Great Game they did this to their nearby neighbors.

In the Great Game they conquered or stole or influenced their expansion south and east through the Caucuses, the Stans, the steppes, and eventually to the Pacific. They have played games with all of Europe, Asia before we even fought among ourselves.

From their revolution on they have been aligning with progressives and worker's parties in the US with varying levels of success, all the way up until heavy influence in the pre WW2 times and other than a small decade when they were licking their wounds, back again with the 60s through today.

This is what they do.

Frankly, I find it somewhat insulting that all of the people that complain about it now after ignoring it forever are often the same people that rush to McCain's defense now yet pilloried him prior to Trump.



I believe that when the Media, in lockstep with the Democratic party, makes a moderate with some level of integrity like Romney into the next Hitler, that we reap what we have sown. We have lost the middle, with both sides going more extreme and more and more out of balance. This looks like there is little chance to correct this imbalance. The future is terrifying.

Trump wasn't the cause, he was the result.

Absolutely, 100% correct. Trump was the inevitable product of the media and the DNC mercilessly portraying harmless, moderate, milquetoasts like McCain and Romney, out to be the next coming of Hitler. That's exactly, and the only reason, why we have Trump. Now the same weasels who unfairly attacked McCain and Romney, are whining about reaping what they sow. Tough nuggets.

We need to drain the swamp, flush the toilet, and elect a new kind of politician, and start talking about what works and what doesn't, and stop incessantly shrieking about racism and sexism, and whatever other drummed-up hate du jour will get you another vote.

The short term future is indeed terrifying, take a gander at your neighbor to the south, the state of CT.

I don't believe the GOP has radicalized anywhere near to the extent of the democrats. Individual cases, sure, not national party leadership. The right-wing equivalent of where democrats are today (open borders, legalizing drugs, abortion until birth, use whatever bathroom tickles your fancy), is concentration camps and zero taxes and executing people for being on welfare.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I am not surprised that is your response, that is the response a lot of well intentioned people have.

Here are some historical notes: choose to do with them what you will, but I would highly suggest you go over Russian history for the past 300 years. Russia has been lying, "hacking", influencing, and sabotaging other countries positions and governments, and when available elections, for over 300 years. It is what they do.

From the 1200s up into the times of the Great Game they did this to their nearby neighbors.

In the Great Game they conquered or stole or influenced their expansion south and east through the Caucuses, the Stans, the steppes, and eventually to the Pacific. They have played games with all of Europe, Asia before we even fought among ourselves.

From their revolution on they have been aligning with progressives and worker's parties in the US with varying levels of success, all the way up until heavy influence in the pre WW2 times and other than a small decade when they were licking their wounds, back again with the 60s through today.

This is what they do.

Frankly, I find it somewhat insulting that all of the people that complain about it now after ignoring it forever are often the same people that rush to McCain's defense now yet pilloried him prior to Trump.



I believe that when the Media, in lockstep with the Democratic party, makes a moderate with some level of integrity like Romney into the next Hitler, that we reap what we have sown. We have lost the middle, with both sides going more extreme and more and more out of balance. This looks like there is little chance to correct this imbalance. The future is terrifying.

Trump wasn't the cause, he was the result.

You're being reasonable and logical, which is not welcomed in the midst of partisan squabbles--certainly not welcomed in arguments fueled by hate and personal animosity.

I agree with all of what you said. Except I think that I "interpret" it a bit differently.

Yes, Trump was the result not the cause. But I look at the result as being a corrective, not just a continuance of rushing to a mad end.

And I see the "middle" to be different than what I gather folks on this forum who refer to it believe it to be. I don't think there is a middle between ideological extremes. Picking portions of each extreme just results in a variation of extremes. A variation that changes as extremes change.

For me, the idea of a constant ideological "middle" is that which doesn't change, but is the point from which extremes diverge. It is an unchanging principle, a foundation, upon which a society is founded. My notion of losing our "middle" would be abandoning that founding principle. We no longer agree to even consider that middle when we discuss politics, much less act on it.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I am not surprised that is your response, that is the response a lot of well intentioned people have.

Here are some historical notes: choose to do with them what you will, but I would highly suggest you go over Russian history for the past 300 years. Russia has been lying, "hacking", influencing, and sabotaging other countries positions and governments, and when available elections, for over 300 years. It is what they do.

From the 1200s up into the times of the Great Game they did this to their nearby neighbors.

In the Great Game they conquered or stole or influenced their expansion south and east through the Caucuses, the Stans, the steppes, and eventually to the Pacific. They have played games with all of Europe, Asia before we even fought among ourselves.

From their revolution on they have been aligning with progressives and worker's parties in the US with varying levels of success, all the way up until heavy influence in the pre WW2 times and other than a small decade when they were licking their wounds, back again with the 60s through today.

This is what they do.

Frankly, I find it somewhat insulting that all of the people that complain about it now after ignoring it forever are often the same people that rush to McCain's defense now yet pilloried him prior to Trump.



I believe that when the Media, in lockstep with the Democratic party, makes a moderate with some level of integrity like Romney into the next Hitler, that we reap what we have sown. We have lost the middle, with both sides going more extreme and more and more out of balance. This looks like there is little chance to correct this imbalance. The future is terrifying.

Trump wasn't the cause, he was the result.

John thanks for the history lesson, but what Russia was capable of doing and the influence that may have resulted in prior to the internet, is like comparing the first gas engine driven car to what circles the track at Daytona.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

John thanks for the history lesson, but what Russia was capable of doing and the influence that may have resulted in prior to the internet, is like comparing the first gas engine driven car to what circles the track at Daytona.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

John just gave a brief overall sketch. If he had filled in the details, you would not have responded the way you did. The direct involvement and participation of Soviet agents and fellow travelers in the FDR administration was absolutely massive and persuasive. It was directly responsible for the takeover of China and other parts of Asia as well as all of Eastern Europe by Communists. The internet influence that Russia exerted in this last go-round amounts to nothing in comparison to what the Soviets accomplished with their infiltration of Roosevelt's administration.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

John just gave a brief overall sketch. If he had filled in the details, you would not have responded the way you did. The direct involvement and participation of Soviet agents and fellow travelers in the FDR administration was absolutely massive and persuasive. It was directly responsible for the takeover of China and other parts of Asia as well as all of Eastern Europe by Communists. The internet influence that Russia exerted in this last go-round amounts to nothing in comparison to what the Soviets accomplished with their infiltration of Roosevelt's administration.

So in light of what Russia has done, is doing and will do your ok with Trump encouragement of their interference in the 2016 election?
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