Over the fiscal cliff we go!!!!

[nightfighter]

I blame every single one of the bastards! Starting with the President, right down through Congress. Every single incumbent deserves to be voted OUT!

[johnny ducketts]

Yup
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[scottw]

I blame the voters...those who decided to leave this President in office on his current course of "fundamental change", who continually vote the people back in to office who have made such a mess with unsustainable and unkept promises while claiming that they are best qualified to fix the mess....who voted to maintain an unsustainable and ever growing dependency state under the fallacy that raising taxes on 1% or 2% of their fellow Americans is the best way to ensure the flow of gifts from government..... who ignore the founding of this country and the principles onwhich it's foundation was laid and who swoon at the voices of the sophists whose promises always fall short....they voted to not only continue the current course of government dependence but also to expand it through Obamacare and whatever else might be devised to sell the electorate on better living at "government's" expense....the only way to attampt to pay for it is through higher taxes on "all" earners and massive military cuts.....and even then...we're still screwed, it's not the inability to cut a deal in Washington that forced us over the "fiscal cliff"...it's the inability of the electorate to recognize the danger that the ever expanding bureaucracy and it's profligate spending poses...Happy New Year

[Jim in CT]

Nah, we'll be fine. After all, the Senate passed a bill last night with - wait for it - $15 billion in spending cuts. 15 billion. That's almost 1/1000th of what we need!


Also, 620 billion in tax hikes.

What happened to the deal of $12 in spending cuts for every $1 in tax hikes?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

. After all, the Senate passed a bill last night with - wait for it - $15 billion in spending cuts.

I wonder if that was for 1 year or over the next 10 years?

"total federal spending for fiscal year 2012[1] reached $3.6 trillion"

[scottw]

btw...we're going over much more than a 'fiscal' cliff

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/op...=2&ref=opinion


Let’s Give Up on the Constitution
By LOUIS MICHAEL SEIDMAN
Published: December 30, 2012

"AS the nation teeters at the edge of fiscal chaos, observers are reaching the conclusion that the American system of government is broken. But almost no one blames the culprit: our insistence on obedience to the Constitution, with all its archaic, idiosyncratic and downright evil provisions.........


If even this change is impossible, perhaps the dream of a country ruled by “We the people” is impossibly utopian. If so, we have to give up on the claim that we are a self-governing people who can settle our disagreements through mature and tolerant debate. But before abandoning our heritage of self-government, we ought to try extricating ourselves from constitutional bondage so that we can give real freedom a chance."

[striperman36]

the house hasn't taken action on it yet, so we're still in freefall

[Backbeach Jake]

They are our employees. It is our responsibility to keep an eye on them...Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives

[scottw]

Originally Posted by striperman36

the house hasn't taken action on it yet, so we're still in freefall

how should they act?


"According to the Congressional Budget Office, the last-minute fiscal cliff deal reached by congressional leaders and President Barack Obama cuts only $15 billion in spending while increasing tax revenues by $620 billion—a 41:1 ratio of tax increases to spending cuts.
When Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush increased taxes in return for spending cuts—cuts that never ultimately came—they did so at ratios of 3:1 and 2:1.

“In 1982, President Reagan was promised $3 in spending cuts for every $1 in tax hikes,” Americans for Tax Reform says of those two incidents. “The tax hikes went through, but the spending cuts did not materialize. President Reagan later said that signing onto this deal was the biggest mistake of his presidency.

"In 1990, President George H.W. Bush agreed to $2 in spending cuts for every $1 in tax hikes. The tax hikes went through, and we are still paying them today. Not a single penny of the promised spending cuts actually happened.”"

[striperman36]

that is the question isn't it.

[buckman]

They will piss away that 620 billion and spend even more. This nation is heading for ruin ....fast. I hate to say it but what it will take to fix our problem isn't going to be pretty and most likely will involve firearms
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

They will piss away that 620 billion and spend even more. This nation is heading for ruin ....fast. I hate to say it but what it will take to fix our problem isn't going to be pretty and most likely will involve firearms
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Ahhh, those Second Amendment remedies we've heard about?

So who will you target first?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Ahhh, those Second Amendment remedies we've heard about?

So who will you target first?

-spence

??? I was thinking confiscation would be on the Obama administrations list. You just can't keep on doing to the American people what is happening without protecting yourself.
Enjoy your victory Spence. You got higher taxes and more money for entitlements . Another bullet into your grandchildren's future .
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

??? I was thinking confiscation would be on the Obama administrations list. You just can't keep on doing to the American people what is happening without protecting yourself.
Enjoy your victory Spence. You got higher taxes and more money for entitlements . Another bullet into your grandchildren's future .
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Sorry, I just assumed you were calling for arms.

-spence

[striperman36]

Unfortunately, you cannot just stop paying into the system

[striperman36]

Liken the Cali Supreme Court upholding that you could not sue for damages due to a bumper car accident.

Or when it gets to the Ct Supreme, why you cannot sue because your child was unprotected from gun violence and traumatized be her classmates brutal deaths

[RIROCKHOUND]

No, but if he was the fiscal hawk he claims to be, don't you think he would have voted with Cantor et al? Otherwise, it is another tax and spend, while belittling spending, republican.

For the record, on this issue, both sides suck the big one.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

No, but if he was the fiscal hawk he claims to be, don't you think he would have voted with Cantor et al? Otherwise, it is another tax and spend, while belittling spending, republican.

For the record, on this issue, both sides suck the big one.

So if the choice is vote for a bad bill, or vote against the bad bill and take the risk that we sink back into recession...then if you vote for the lesser of two evils, you can't call yourself a fiscal hawk.

Got it. Check. Ryan is a fraud, and a big fat liar, and a liberal in disguise. How could I have been so stupid?

Bryan, how exactly do conservatives suck the big one on this? They are in the minority. They didn't have the ability to force anything into the bill that the Senate Democrats weren't going to approve. They called for meaningful entitlement reform, and the Democrats said no.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Bryan, how exactly do conservatives suck the big one on this?

I'd say it has something to do with their complete and utter humiliation.

The GOP set out a negotiation position based on an absolute belief that any tax increases were off the table. At the end of the day, they folded and got nearly nothing in return.

Ultimately I think this will be good for the GOP. To rebound they have to hit bottom and while I'm not sure this was it it's getting close.

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Because both sides played this as a political card, rather than work towards a solution that would have involved more compromise. this 'mentally disordered' liberal wanted to see a more balanced approach to spending. Instead they waited until the last minute and just kicked the can 2 months down the road.

Ryan is a hypocrite on spending, he talks against spending, but then is first in line writing letters asking money for his state. Does it make him a bad person, no, it makes him a good Politician...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Because both sides played this as a political card, rather than work towards a solution that would have involved more compromise. this 'mentally disordered' liberal wanted to see a more balanced approach to spending. Instead they waited until the last minute and just kicked the can 2 months down the road.

Ryan is a hypocrite on spending, he talks against spending, but then is first in line writing letters asking money for his state. Does it make him a bad person, no, it makes him a good Politician...

"Instead they waited until the last minute and just kicked the can 2 months down the road. "

Who is this 'they' that you refer to? Again, the GOP doesn't control the Senate or the Executive branch. Bryan, please tell me what you think would have happened, if the GOP-controlled house passed a bill that had more cuts? The Democrat-controlled Senate would have rejected it, and if somehow that failed to happen, Obama would have vetoed it.

The conservatives offered a balanced approach leading up to the elections last November, and the country resoundingly rejected their ideas. We reap what we sow.

"rather than work towards a solution that would have involved more compromise"

Anyone who understands 5th grade math, knows that a political compromise won't fix the problem. When you factor in the unfunded costs of SS and Medicare, our debt is north of $50 trillion. There's no ambiguity in how we need to address that. We need massive, painful cuts. When Paul Ryan suggested a step in that direction, your fellow liberals made a commercial showing him pushing an old lady off a cliff. That's what causes gridlock, that's what prevents any meaningful legislation.

"Ryan is a hypocrite on spending, he talks against spending, but then is first in line writing letters asking money for his state."

Currently, Paul Ryan is a congressman representing a district in Wisconsin. His job is to represent their interests. Has Ryan funded a lot of wasteless pork projects to send money back to his district? I have no idea. Since you're so sure, maybe you could back up your statement. His current job is to take care of his constituents. That doesn't mean he screws everyone else to make his constituents rich, but his responsibility to his constituents is greater than his responsibility to you and me.

Ryan stuck his neck out when he proposed cuts to Medicare that amounted to a few trillion in savings. I haven't seen anyone else stick their neck out like he did. Your side attacked him for it. And now you hold him accountable because he didn't do what you wanted him to do?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

this 'mentally disordered' liberal wanted to see a more balanced approach to spending. ...

Dr. Bryan.....respectfully.....WTF does this mean???

never mind..I Googled it...Obama Catch Phrase..... (which means it means nothing) primarily and maybe exclusively used regarding "spending cuts" from what I can see...which we know never materialize.....I like Obama's "Balanced Approach" to Christmas Vacation Spending ....... "shared sacrafice" and all of that......

[detbuch]

So, with the deal the Bush tax cuts have been made "permanent" for 99.4% of those that received them. And there is a big sigh of relief that the tax side of fixing the fiscal cliff nonsense has supposedly been accomplished. I guess that means that the Bush tax cuts were NOT only for the rich and that they were NOT the cause of the recession as many shouted. The amount of taxes to be collected from the .6 of a percent of taxpayers left won't amount to enough to matter much in significantly lowering the deficit and certainly not the debt. And, actually, with the new spending that is to come, the tax raise will not only be insignificant toward deficit/debt reduction, the deficit/debt will rise. So, apparently the fiscal problem IS spending not "revenue." If nothing else, at least that has been established.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And, actually, with the new spending that is to come, the tax raise will not only be insignificant toward deficit/debt reduction, the deficit/debt will rise. So, apparently the fiscal problem IS spending not "revenue." If nothing else, at least that has been established.

Yes, Obama and the Libs don't get it. They're like little children in a candy store
with a checkbook buying everything in sight.
They still aren't mature or smart enough to know
that money in the checking account is needed to pay for it.

Overdrawn, no problem, the Children of the future will pay for their candy.

Obama loves it, everybody gets a lollypop now as he makes all fair and equal
on our Children's and Grandchildren's dime.

[buckman]

I have to agree with Spence, the GOP was humiliated. They have no back bone . We will see in a couple months if they are as corrupt as the Dems. For now believe they are .
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[scottw]

what would you have had them do?...I think we knew that this was a no win from the start....


so if they aren't successful getting spending cuts in a couple of months...they are as corrupt as the dems? what leverage do they have ?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

what would you have had them do?...I think we knew that this was a no win from the start....


so if they aren't successful getting spending cuts in a couple of months...they are as corrupt as the dems? what leverage do they have ?

There is a reason they do things the way the do. Take the tax breaks in the bill for various industries.. 1 tear extensions. You think maybe that's so they can shake down these same industries in another year? Scott , they didn't have to vote for a bad bill... Many didn't !!!
And they can stand up for this countries future in a couple months . Some of them will
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

There is a reason they do things the way the do. Take the tax breaks in the bill for various industries.. 1 tear extensions. You think maybe that's so they can shake down these same industries in another year? Scott , they didn't have to vote for a bad bill... Many didn't !!!
And they can stand up for this countries future in a couple months . Some of them will
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there aren't enough of them and those that will "stand up or this country's future" and stand firm on fiscal sanity are the ones that are mischaracterized and assaulted by Spence and the media as "absolutists" dragging the party to the far right lunatic fringe... the principle that taxes should not go up until permanent and meaningful spending cuts were in place makes perfect sense but to Spence and the left, that is an unreasonable and absolute position...we have a 73,608 page (in 1939 it was 504 pages) tax code which continues to grow...there's a great place to start if you want to look for more revenue, rather than meaningful reform we have the old reliable method of negotiating employed by teachers unions and school departments where we wait until the eve of the new school year to bargain, threatening to disrupt the lives of the people paying the bills if they don't pony up more money or threatening to start cutting sports and arts from the lives of the youth if the bureaucracy is not fully funded, preferring to bargain on the eve of a perceived or fabricated crisis(Senators received the bill at approximately 1:36 AM on Jan. 1, 2013 – a mere three minutes before they voted to approve it at 1:39 AM.)
...it's dispicable, it's destructive and it does nothing in the long run but add more layers to the bureaucracy, increase out indebtedness and hasten our collapse....Spence for some reason applauds this, mocks the only people in the room who object and acts as though this is some kind of game( I don't know if you caught the CSPAN Democrat press conference on Monday but it was nauseating, smug and frankly frightening that we have people like this determining the future of our country) where we're simply keeping score to see who can come out on top in a negotiating tournament......you can't win negotiating with liars or crazies, and we're dealing with both aided by a complicit mainstream media propoganda machine.....I guess I'm saying...don't get your hopes up...expect more "humiliation"....mockery and humiliation are an important component of the Progressive playbook, expect the people that you are "counting on" to be further villified and marginalized and "humiliated" for the next two months....you can blame republicans for not jumping in front of the bullet...I'll reserve my ire for the lunatics that are driving the train and giving you the finger ......great to met Buckman Jr. by the way....

as of the 1st...we are out of money...


NEW YORK (CNNMoney)

It's official: U.S. debt reached its legal borrowing limit Monday, giving Congress about two months before it must raise the debt ceiling or risk causing the government to default on its bills and financial obligations.

"I can confirm we will reach the statutory debt limit today, Dec. 31," a Treasury Department official said Monday.

A bipartisan fiscal cliff deal passed by the Senate early Tuesday and awaiting a vote in the House did not address the debt ceiling issue.

As expected, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner had submitted a letter to Congress on Monday saying he had begun a "debt issuance suspension period" that would last through Feb. 28. That means Treasury will employ a series of "extraordinary measures" so it does not exceed the debt limit, currently set at $16.394 trillion.

Such measures include suspending the reinvestment of federal workers' retirement account contributions in short-term government bonds.

By taking those steps, Treasury can buy about $200 billion of headroom. That normally can cover about two months' worth of borrowing, although continuing uncertainty about tax rates and spending make it hard to determine precisely how long the extraordinary measures will last.

[striperman36]

now we have the debt ceiling and sequestration in the next 60 days to argue about with a new Congress.

Oh and FEMA relief for Sandy, way to go our elected officials.

Both sides lost, the American people lost

[buckman]

The Republican Party has problems Scott. Being fiscally conservative,wanting a budget, protecting our borders, defending the Constitution, Defending the unborn and the sanctity of marriage and expecting those that can work to support their families to work used to be the norm for republicans . Now you're crazy right-winger if you defend those institutions. Stick to your values don't compromise. Brown has become a Republican in name only. No different than Olympia Snow
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