Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating
Page 3 of 4 12 3 4
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating (http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/index.php)
-   Political Threads (http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=66)
-   -   Gun-Trained Teacher Accidentally Shoots Gun In Calif. High School Classroom (http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/showthread.php?t=93491)

The Dad Fisherman 03-20-2018 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1139759)
but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law.. more protection for the un born then the living but here are their fire arm requirements

long guns handguns
Background checks required for private sales? No No
Firearm registration? No No
Assault weapon law? No No
Owner license required? No No Carry permits required? No No

Mississippi 4th in U.S. gun deaths: must be TV and Video games and nothing to do with household gun ownership rate of 54.3
Mississippi is #5 on the list of highest unemployment, #2 on Highest Obesity, #2 on Welfare and #6 on the worst states for Overall Mental Health

Maybe if these Crazy Fat %#!@ stopped s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g off the government teat and got a job they wouldn't be shooting each other. (somewhere an SJW's kitten just exploded)

I know this was my usual tongue in cheek sarcasm but it does speak to maybe a quality of life issue being an underlying factor as well. But we can't discuss that.

JohnR 03-20-2018 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1139759)
you guys are to funny asking for solutions to a problem you insist doesn't exist .. and then try to sell yourselves a honest brokers in the conversation.. who's only response to anything gun is "Shall not infringe"

but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law.. more protection for the un born then the living but here are their fire arm requirements

long guns handguns
Background checks required for private sales? No No
Firearm registration? No No
Assault weapon law? No No
Owner license required? No No Carry permits required? No No

Change all these to yes .... but we all know nothing 100% when you start with zero expectations you have poor results

Mississippi 4th in U.S. gun deaths: must be TV and Video games and nothing to do with household gun ownership rate of 54.3

The state with the highest per capita gun death rate in 2016 was Alaska, followed by Alabama. Each of these states has extremely lax gun violence prevention laws as well as a higher rate of gun ownership, VPC said. The state with the lowest gun death rate in the nation was Massachusetts, followed by New York. Each of these states has strong gun violence prevention laws and a lower rate of gun ownership,

Damn those pesky statistics showing laws help to reduce gun deaths not eliminate guns deaths ...

Scott you have my answer on how to prevention shooting deaths in that state

Do you have a solution? or do you think there is no problem to start with
No Wayne, you always insist that the honest people that have done nothing wrong give stuff up.

Funny how if you remove firearms the rate of death or injury by firearm goes down. If you remove cars the accident rate goes down too. Remove cell phones and I might not have had to dodge a teen with a car and an iphone the other day.

Now take your stats and do murders by firearm. All your stats include suicide - which is by far thew highest cause of gun deaths.

Jim in CT 03-20-2018 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR (Post 1139766)
All your stats include suicide - which is by far thew highest cause of gun deaths.
Are you suggesting that there is politically motivated manipulation taking place? Get out of here...

scottw 03-21-2018 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1139759)
you guys are to funny asking for solutions to a problem you insist doesn't exist when has anyone suggested that a problem does not exist? .. and then try to sell yourselves a honest brokers in the conversation.. who's only response to anything gun is "Shall not infringe" when was the last time anyone responded this way?

but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law.. more protection for the un born then the living but here are their fire arm requirements this is idiotic...can we start referring to leftists and the un dead?
it fits if you think about it :rotf2:

long guns handguns
Background checks required for private sales? No No
Firearm registration? No No
Assault weapon law? No No
Owner license required? No No Carry permits required? No No

Change all these to yes .... but we all know nothing 100% when you start with zero expectations you have poor results

Mississippi 4th in U.S. gun deaths you realize that someone has to be ..right?: must be TV and Video games and nothing to do with household gun ownership rate of 54.3 "gun deaths"... question..do you think that if you are shot you have a better chance of getting to a good hospital quickly and getting good treatment if you are in Mississippi or Massachusetts?"

The state with the highest per capita gun death rate in 2016 was Alaska, followed by Alabama. Each of these states has extremely lax gun violence prevention what exactly is a "gun violence prevention law"laws as well as a higher rate of gun ownership, VPC said. The state with the lowest gun death rate in the nation was Massachusetts, followed by New York.I'd repeat what I mentioned above Each of these states has strong gun violence prevention laws and a lower rate of gun ownership,

Damn those pesky statistics showing laws help to reduce gun deaths not eliminate guns deaths ... Maryland has the third or 4th strictest gun laws in the country, just had a school shooting and is home to the most dangerous city in america according to USA today recently...

Scott you have my answer on how to prevention shooting deaths in that state

Do you have a solution? or do you think there is no problem to start with
you completely ignored the question again, which simply was...what would you do...since YOU brought it up...that would prevent this little boy from losing his mind and getting a gun and shooting his sister....he could have thrown her out a window....would your "solution" be more restrictive access to windows for everyone in Mississippi?

you listed the same old thing...none of which addressed or would cure or "solve" the boy's anger or the negligence of the parent(s)

I'm curious to know what your "so my 1st idea is un expectable" may be...1st ideas and inclinations are usually the best...:)

JohnR 03-21-2018 07:37 AM
BTW Wayne, I'm all for requiring a safe storage solution (gun safe for example).

It is required in some place and just makes sense.

scottw 03-21-2018 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR (Post 1139855)
BTW Wayne, I'm all for requiring a safe storage solution (gun safe for example).

It is required in some place and just makes sense.
it does make sense...how do you enforce this?

zimmy 03-21-2018 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1139856)
it does make sense...how do you enforce this?
When a nine year old walks in the bedroom and grabs a handgun and shoots his 13 year old sister in the back of the head you arrest the owner for improper storage. Kind of like the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent to murder, it might deter a person from leaving the handgun where a child can access it.

Nebe 03-21-2018 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 1139867)
When a nine year old walks in the bedroom and grabs a handgun and shoots his 13 year old sister in the back of the head you arrest the owner for improper storage. Kind of like the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent to murder, it might deter a person from leaving the handgun where a child can access it.
The term is called “accessory to murder”
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Slipknot 03-21-2018 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1139856)
it does make sense...how do you enforce this?
It is only enforceable in the event something happens and then becomes an add on charge like so many other gun laws.
But at least there is a known rule about it and not just relying on common sense since we know that sure is lacking today.

It's pretty sad that in this state it seems like law abiding gun owners have to be paranoid about accidentally having one piece of empty .22 brass shell laying in a crevice somewhere and being in violation of ammo storage laws.

That is a very sad story of those kids, something is terribly wrong today when these things happen, if he used a hammer it would have been just as terrible. Long ago a kid did something similar to a sibling with a hammer after seeing Curly on the Three Stooges getting hit on the head by Moe, you can't think that video games have zero part in this thought process of a child of 9 years old. So the Sheriff is right to question all the facts. I don't see where he said let's blame video games. Just the same as the anti's blaming the NRA and lawful gun owners after a school shooting.

scottw 03-21-2018 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 1139867)
When a nine year old walks in the bedroom and grabs a handgun and shoots his 13 year old sister in the back of the head you arrest the owner for improper storage.totally agreeKind of like the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent to murder, it "might"? deter a person from leaving the handgun where a child can access it.
that assumes that people who are dumb enough to leave loaded hand guns laying around where little children can access them are going to going to care that there is a law requiring a safe storage solution....

wait...I thought the death penalty is not a deterrent "A 2009 survey of criminologists revealed that over 88% believed the death penalty was NOT a deterrent to murder."

The Dad Fisherman 03-21-2018 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1139856)
it does make sense...how do you enforce this?
Both of these are after the fact, then laws are broken, arrests made, and charges filed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 1139867)
When a nine year old walks in the bedroom and grabs a handgun and shoots his 13 year old sister in the back of the head you arrest the owner for improper storage. Kind of like the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent to murder, it might deter a person from leaving the handgun where a child can access it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe (Post 1139868)
The term is called “accessory to murder”
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
The question is how do you enforce the requirement of someone having to lock up their weapons. Other than random spot-checks by the police (which will never happen), there really isn't a way.

If you want to fix the issue, find a way to fix stupidity and lack of common sense.

spence 03-21-2018 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1139879)
The question is how do you enforce the requirement of someone having to lock up their weapons. Other than random spot-checks by the police (which will never happen), there really isn't a way.

If you want to fix the issue, find a way to fix stupidity and lack of common sense.
No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable. Plenty of options to protect weapons yet keep them available for home defense if needed.

scottw 03-21-2018 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1139880)
No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable.
you'd think they'd comply because they don't want their kids shooting each other...liability?...good grief

zimmy 03-21-2018 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1139876)
that assumes that people who are dumb enough to leave loaded hand guns laying around where little children can access them are going to going to care that there is a law requiring a safe storage solution....

wait...I thought the death penalty is not a deterrent "A 2009 survey of criminologists revealed that over 88% believed the death penalty was NOT a deterrent to murder."
Right, that is why I said "supposed to be a deterrent..." Even if it doesn't deter negligent behavior, the owner probably should be held responsible.

The Dad Fisherman 03-21-2018 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1139880)
No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable. Plenty of options to protect weapons yet keep them available for home defense if needed.
The question wasn't if it was a sound solution, I don't think anybody here is going to argue that it is smart to lock up guns when there are children around, the question was how do you enforce it?

wdmso 03-22-2018 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1139887)
The question wasn't if it was a sound solution, I don't think anybody here is going to argue that it is smart to lock up guns when there are children around, the question was how do you enforce it?
How do you enforce a requirement in a state that doesn't have any requirements to own a gun to start with ...

but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law! its madness

The Dad Fisherman 03-22-2018 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1139990)
How do you enforce a requirement in a state that doesn't have any requirements to own a gun to start with ...

but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law! its madness
Then it's not a requirement, is it?

Again, how do you enforce that requirement in a state that actually HAS that requirement?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete F. 03-22-2018 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1139993)
Then it's not a requirement, is it?

Again, how do you enforce that requirement in a state that actually HAS that requirement?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
You can’t enforce it in every case, like most public safety laws, seat belts for instance, you do so to affect common behavior. More people wear seatbelts now than before there was a law requiring their use and most people no longer need a law to make them.
It has saved lives, now airbags......
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

spence 03-22-2018 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1140002)
You can’t enforce it in every case, like most public safety laws, seat belts for instance, you do so to affect common behavior. More people wear seatbelts now than before there was a law requiring their use and most people no longer need a law to make them.
It has saved lives, now airbags......
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete F. 03-22-2018 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1140003)
Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I intimated that but perhaps it was not clear.
I remember starting to drive once and one of my children screaming Stop
I said what is the matter she said I don’t have my seatbelt on
That was probably 20 years ago or so
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT 03-22-2018 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1140003)
Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I don't think it's the same thing. Drivers have to go out and drive past cops every day, so many people have the incentive (disincentive?) to wear seat belts.

Isn't there already a law saying you can't leave guns out if little kids are around? Maybe not...

We fall so short of what we should be....so many stupid people out there.

Pete F. 03-22-2018 08:29 PM
Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

spence 03-22-2018 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1140005)
I remember starting to drive once and one of my children screaming Stop
I said what is the matter she said I don’t have my seatbelt on
That was probably 20 years ago or so
This is exactly my point.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

scottw 03-23-2018 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1140010)
Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
there is so much here...maybe a weekend project

Jim in CT 03-23-2018 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1140010)
Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I agree with everything you said. But I will repeat my question...aren't there already laws (reckless endangerment, maybe?) which make it illegal to leave guns around where children can get them?

Some laws are effective (seat belt laws, as Spence mentioned, God knows how many lives they save), Some laws, for reasons I do not pretend to know, are not as effective.

So what law would you pass, which doesn't already exist, to prevent these things...and how would you enforce it?

scottw 03-23-2018 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1140027)

So what law would you pass, which doesn't already exist, to prevent these things...and how would you enforce it?
clearly...you could start by banning uneducated white trash from owning any kind of firearm...that would go a long in solving many of the country's problems....enforce it with the death penalty...which would also serve as a deterrent...

Pete F. 03-23-2018 07:37 AM
Here you go
http://goal.org/masslawpages/storageinfo.html

PaulS 03-23-2018 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1140032)
clearly...you could start by banning uneducated white trash from owning any kind of firearm...that would go a long in solving many of the country's problems....enforce it with the death penalty...which would also serve as a deterrent...
I'm sure there are still a lot of southerners around who administered those literacy tests to Blacks. Maybe they can help.

Jim in CT 03-23-2018 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS (Post 1140044)
I'm sure there are still a lot of southerners around who administered those literacy tests to Blacks. Maybe they can help.
Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...

How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.

PaulS 03-23-2018 09:57 AM
Good point (if true). Too bad the NRA has gone off the deep end and has gotten so extreme.

zimmy 03-23-2018 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1140051)
Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...

How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.
Where you get that info? It seems like you might be promoting teaching of unsubstantiated or false claims. The things I find are more like:
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...n-fact-checks/
The National Rifle Association was "founded by religious leaders who wanted to protect freed slaves from the Ku Klux Klan."

Our rating: Pants on Fire.

This claim was made in 2013 by Harry Alford, president and chief executive officer of the D.C.-based National Black Chamber of Commerce and was shared by the Milwaukee County Republican Party.

We found the NRA itself said it was formed by Union Civil War veterans to improve soldiers’ marksmanship. And we found no evidence that religious leaders founded the NRA to protect freed slaves from the KKK."

Even separate from the issue of the founding of the NRA, I can't find any info that says they helped slaves. Could be true, I just cant find anything on it.

Jim in CT 03-23-2018 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 1140072)
Where you get that info? It seems like you might be promoting teaching of unsubstantiated or false claims. The things I find are more like:
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...n-fact-checks/
The National Rifle Association was "founded by religious leaders who wanted to protect freed slaves from the Ku Klux Klan."

Our rating: Pants on Fire.

This claim was made in 2013 by Harry Alford, president and chief executive officer of the D.C.-based National Black Chamber of Commerce and was shared by the Milwaukee County Republican Party.

We found the NRA itself said it was formed by Union Civil War veterans to improve soldiers’ marksmanship. And we found no evidence that religious leaders founded the NRA to protect freed slaves from the KKK."

Even separate from the issue of the founding of the NRA, I can't find any info that says they helped slaves. Could be true, I just cant find anything on it.
I don’t think I sad anything about how it why it was founded. I said they helped blacks defend themselves. I didn’t know that was in dispute, I’ve seen a lot of blacks claim they got guns from the NRA. In any event, as Paul said, their mission statement is quite different today.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

zimmy 03-23-2018 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1140074)
I don’t think I sad anything about how it why it was founded. I said they helped blacks defend themselves. I didn’t know that was in dispute, I’ve seen a lot of blacks claim they got guns from the NRA. In any event, as Paul said, their mission statement is quite different today.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Right. I pointed out that the only thing I could find was about a bogus claim about the founding of the nra., but I found nothing that even marginally supports your statement that the NRA helped blacks who had their guns taken by racists. You said history teachers know mao and Stalin, but not that tidbit. Where did you get that info? You put it out as fact. You specifically said "aware of the fact..." It is likely a bogus claim related to the false statement about the founding I referenced. Even if true it is irrelevant to the students who walked out 125 years later. Why do you think it is a fact?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

JohnR 03-24-2018 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1140051)
Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...

How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.
Some NRA people perhaps did help (Spence level remote association ;) ) but not because they were NRA but because the Republicans, some affiliated with the nascent and generally unrelated NRA of the day, were trying to reduce the pressure on black's in the south after the Civil War. Shortly after the Civil War, blacks were able to vote and some went to Congress as representatives for their areas. The 1870s and post CW reconstruction were a severe period of upheaval.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS (Post 1140056)
Good point (if true). Too bad the NRA has gone off the deep end and has gotten so extreme.
How has the NRA gone off the deep end and gotten extreme? Do you feel that the ALCU should be disbanded due to their fervent support of first amendment rights?

Did the NRA cause these school shootings? Did NRA Members do the mass shooting?

RIROCKHOUND 03-24-2018 08:40 AM
Anyone boycotting the Patriots after Kraft loaned the team plane to fly kids down to the rally today?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

JohnR 03-24-2018 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND (Post 1140114)
Anyone boycotting the Patriots after Kraft loaned the team plane to fly kids down to the rally today?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Conflicted, he is flying people to promote their 1A rights at the expense of their 2A rights.

Sea Dangles 03-24-2018 09:23 AM
NRA is extreme, but it is their cause without compromise. I just think Kraft is just being compassionate in the aftermath of a national tragedy. Sometimes it has nothing to do with rights and more about being a human being with resources to help restore faith.He is a good man.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

detbuch 03-24-2018 09:50 AM
Excerpts from Wikipedia:

Robert Franklin Williams (February 26, 1925 – October 15, 1996) was an American civil rights leader and author best known for serving as president of the Monroe, North Carolina chapter of the NAACP in the 1950s and into 1961. He succeeded in integrating the local public library and swimming pool in Monroe. At a time of high racial tension and official abuses, Williams promoted armed black self-defense in the United States . . .Williams obtained a charter from the National Rifle Association and set up a rifle club to defend blacks in Jonesboro from Ku Klux Klan or other attackers . . . Alarmed at the threat to civil rights activists, Williams had applied to the National Rifle Association (NRA) for a charter for a local rifle club.[15] He called the Monroe Chapter of the NRA the Black Armed Guard; it was made up of about 50–60 men, including some veterans like him. They were determined to defend the local black community from racist attacks, a goal similar to that of the Deacons for Defense who established chapters in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama in 1964-1965.[16]
Newtown was the black residential area of Monroe. In the summer of 1957, there were rumors that the KKK was going to attack the house of Dr. Albert Perry, a practicing physician and vice-president of the Monroe NAACP. Williams and his men of the Armed Guard went to Perry's house to defend it, fortifying it with sandbags. When numerous KKK members appeared and shot from their cars, Williams and his followers returned the fire, driving them away.[17]
"After this clash the same city officials who said the Klan had a constitutional right to organize met in an emergency session and passed a city ordinance banning the Klan from Monroe without a special permit from the police chief."[14]
In Negroes with Guns, Williams writes:
"[R]acists consider themselves superior beings and are not willing to exchange their superior lives for our inferior ones. They are most vicious and violent when they can practice violence with impunity."[18] He wrote, "It has always been an accepted right of Americans, as the history of our Western states proves, that where the law is unable, or unwilling, to enforce order, the citizens can, and must act in self-defense against lawless violence."[

zimmy 03-24-2018 10:19 AM
Oh so what he meant to say was a black man got an NRA charter so that black men could defend black people against the KKK. That clearly should be up there on highschool curriculum hierarchy with mao and Stalin.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

zimmy 03-24-2018 10:38 AM
Not sure this was what Jim was picturing... https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/10/1...lutionary.html
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:25 AM.
Page 3 of 4 12 3 4
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com