I explained this to you already. Yes, voyeurs and perverts are a different risk than true transgenders. But PLEASE TELL US, if you open the restrooms to trannys, how do you prevent perverts from going in there as well? How can you fail to see, that these permissive laws make it significantly easier for the perverts to claim to be trannys, to gain access to the ladies rom? Does everyone have to pass a polygraph exam before entering?

"a man or woman who has had their gender changed. "

No such thing. You can change your appearance. Your sex is determined by your DNA. That doesn't change, ever. There is no such thing as changing your sex.

I just googled "woman attacked in public restroom". Try it. And get back to me.

Insult? sounds like you are a little thin skinned.
It wasn't an insult, just not a worthy comparison


OK, so lawmakers are not doing a good job of trying to pass a law to keep a small group of citizens from being discriminated against and you and others are upset about that. That is my observation. They have a right to be treated fairly and not be discriminated just as many in history who are different from you whether it be skin color, religion or what country they are from. The world is changing, you can either accept things or resist. It sounds like you only have a problem with 2 things, the president pulling his executive order/action tough guy thing which he should be called out on I agree, and the fact that unscrupulous people other than true transgenders will take advantage of these laws and pretend to be male to female just to get into woman's rooms to do possible harmful things. Well if they can write the law to keep those creeps out of it, then is it acceptable? Or are you closed minded on the subject?

I can't believe this has gotten this much press.... ... it's pretty simple..if you are sporting an outboard motor... your limited to the outboard dealer...if you sport an inboard motor you go to the inboard dealer... if you don't like your outboard motor.. remove it and go inboard ( and if you cant afford the surgery ..oh -well....use the outboard facilities until you are legit )...problem solved.. ...otherwise.. USE THE UNISEX restroom ( or porta potti).. and stop wasting hard earned tax payer money on this foolishness... our government and president have a lot more important things to worry about beside where people are going to releave themselves....

"trying to pass a law to keep a small group of citizens from being discriminated against "

How is it discriminating, when previous laws (and 230 years of common sense) suggested that all men (based on how you were born) use the mens room, all women (based on how you were born) use the womens room?

Slipknot, there are times when I'd feel more comfortable, and less threatened, in the ladies room too. That doesn't mean I get to go in there.

How about the large numbers of women who don't want to share their restroom with people who don't have their anatomy? How come their desire for privacy is always expendable?

"They have a right to be treated fairly"

If you were born with a wee-wee, use th emens room...how, exavctly, is that unfair, if it applies equally to all men? No one is singling these trannys out. But the fact is, a man that identifies as a woman, is a man. You can never, ever make that wrong.

"whether it be skin color"

My god, do you people ever not play that card when you are wrong and hopeless? The fpurpose for which a restroom is built, has nothing to do with skin color. It has much to do with anatomy.

"The world is changing"

I'll say. You can keep the change. Change isn't nevcessarily improvement.

I am getting very, very close to supporting the notion of dividing the country. I see very little that unites us as Americans anymore.

"if they can write the law to keep those creeps out of it, then is it acceptable?"

It's more acceptable. But how in God's name do you write a law that says that men can go into a ladies room, but only if they are a tranny. If Willie Horton goes in there and says "I am a tranny", how the hell can you ever prove that he's lying.

Here's 2 questions for you (since I attempted to answer all of yours). First, do you understand that a man that identifies as a woman, is a man? Second, what's so wrong with the system we have been using for 200+ years? Have trannys been getting attacked in rest rooms, and no one told me?

In a perfect world, I guess, we'd have single stall bathrooms. But we can't afford that, so it's not worth talking about. Either a tiny number of trannys will be made uncomfortable, or a large number of non-trannys will be incomfortable (in NC, I promise you that the citizens overwhelmingly wanted the state law).

If I put on a wig and start singing show tunes, that doesn't change my gender. I don't see what good it does, to pretend otherwise. I want trannys to be happy, safe, and secure, I genuinely do. But often times, the minority has to assimmilate a bit. It can't always be th emajority that's forced to surrender their expectations of privacy and comfort.

Geez. I wish I died on the last day of the eisenhower adminidstration, that's when I should have been here.

So far the physical differences between men and women have not, as far as I know, changed. We can either accept that or resist?

I don't know Jim

maybe they can use the family bathroom

In Europe don't they just have one unisex bathroom?

I have seen many times at a football game or something when women come in the men's room because their lines are too long to get in, there doesn't seem to be a problem with that.

Yes there are many things more important to concentrate on

you need to use a public restroom, use it. It does not bother me at all

I think we need to clear the slate and get rid of everyone in the government and start over:whackin::chatter

that's a lotta people and just one bathroom...imagine the lines for that

in San Francisco don't they just use the sidewalk?

:claps::bl: lol

hey...i wouldn't put anything past Europe...:bl:

No, they really don't make much of a difference at all. The proof is in the pudding...Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Mass, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island and Vermont have all had anti-discrimination bathroom laws for years without any issues.

The primary thing your DNA does is trigger development of certain body parts in the womb. Your "sex" as far as your brain is concerned and other body development is primarily hormonal. This absolutely can be tinkered with.

I'd note as well that while rare some people are born with reversed sex chromosomes or irregular pairs.

This is why your bird fetish is so strange. You can't change your hormones and become a bird, nor was the ever a chance you were going to develop as a bird.

One sick puppy.

For such a "brilliant" guy the Shapiro piece is surprisingly weak. Most of the examples aren't people claiming to be transgender, the dude in Toronto is clearly crazy and the Seattle example was a publicity stunt.

"The proof is in the pudding"

Says the guy who claims that there are zero reported incodents of anything bad ever happening to a woman in a restroom.

Spence, if I had a crystal ball, and could see that no woman would ever be assualted, I would still oppose this, because it's weird. It's just weird. Just because something turns tradiitonal family values on its head, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

Proof is in the pudding? Since when do libs subscribe to that theory? How long of a list would you like, of liberal ideas that have proven to be a disaster, yet liberals refuse to acknowledge the proof that's in the pudding? Pensions to public labor unions, assault weapons bans, fanatical gun control laws, affirmative action, sexual permissiveness...mountains of evidence to show how harmful these policies have been, yet your side could care less about that parictular brand of pudding.


"You can't change your hormones and become a bird"

Nor can you change your sex. It's not possible. I can't become a female any more than I can become a bird. I can look more like a female than I can look like a bird...but biologically, I cannot make myself either, I can just pretend. And if it makes me happy, and I don't bother anyone else, I should have that right.

Your sex, biologically, is not detremined by your hormones, but by your chromosomes, which don't get changed. Sorry.

"One sick puppy"

i come up with an anology that highlights the stupidity of your position here. To refute that, you (1) falsely claim that sex is based on hormones (instead of chromosomes) and can thus be changed, and then call me sick, and suggest I have a fetish.

Anything to avoid admitting you are wrong.

His brilliance wasn't necessary in order to merely provide examples. And your situational ethics cop-out doesn't cut it.

Jim said " These laws that allow any man to use the ladies room, make it easier for the demented heterosexual man to claim he's a tranny, to get access to the ladies room.

At first, you asked Jim for one example of what he said. But in response to the Shapiro article the one example morphs into " Most of the examples aren't people claiming to be transgender". The "most" is two (twice your requested one) is now insufficient.

Not only that, but Jim also said " If a man goes into the ladies room, there is no way to tell if it's a tranny, or just a perveted hetero." which the other three are examples of.

Spence, maybe you'll tell us that the World Health Organization doesn't know as much about this stuff as some gay rights group, but here's some pudding that's just chock full of truth. You will find it to be inconvenient truthm, and thus not to be accepted, but try telling a scientist that it's not chromosomes that determine your sex...

"Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex"

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Also..."Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time"

Gender is what you are referring to, which I guess can be said to be interchangeable. Not biological sex. And when one goes into a public restroom, it's (hopefully) not to engage in a social experiment, but rather to take care of a biological function. That used to be a simple, non-controversial topic. Not anymore. Unbelievable.

Enjoy that pudding.

Also Spence, I see you didn't respond to a critical question of mine (shocker, I know)...what do you think of the fact that the Obama administration told the governor he could have a one week extension, only if he publicly acknowledged that the law is discriminatory and unconstitutional?

When you are wrong as often as liberals are, you don't want to talk about things that actually matter. Instead, you steer the conversation to topics where you feel you can make conservatives look like hatemongers and bigots.

nope ... I never lost the individual choice to use the Head and I am not fear full of the liberal Government stealing my rights... a conservative government stealing my rights now thats another story ..

Jim : Conservatives dont need help from liberals to make conservatives look like hatemongers and bigots. they do fine all by themselves ..

So you're OK with someone else losing their rights just as long as you don't lose yours. I didn't picture you as being that selfish.

And your not afraid of "liberal" government taking away what you consider your rights, but have some trepidation that a "conservative" one might. You have asked why "conservatives" are afraid of "liberals" and their policies or ideas. Maybe, if they really are "afraid," you have answered your questions. Maybe they are afraid for the same reasons you are.

But why do you so often cast conservatives as being afraid. That is so discriminatory. Allowing yourself to be afraid of them, but calling them cowards when they oppose your points of view.

Well with that logic and supporting arguments and supporting data, how can I argue?

What rights have you lost and I have gained or not lost ?? seems to be more emotional than factual ??


So in your world view allowing transgender to use the bathroom of the sex the identify with.. as taking your rights away in my world view its giving a right to people different than my self .. like same sex marriage its called addition not subtraction

I see conservatives much more willing to limit the rights of others and their own followers in order to maintain what they call Traditional Vaules but they use the word Ban all the time they ban this they will Ban that !! even in the 2a argument the right loves the word Ban for the past 50 years... I dont support banning guns but that wont stop Conservatives from thinking I do... why because I am not upset if a transgender uses the same rest room I do or gay people get married or people shouldn't be shot or beat by police no matter how much they may or may not deserve it .. reguardless of there Race


calling them cowards when they oppose your points of view,,???? Dont recall calling any one person a coward however being afraid is very different from being a coward and I haven't met many conservatives who wont defend their views Vigorously sadly I have met many liberals who don't defend their views Vigorously

1. Coward
a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

Afraid feeling reluctance, unwillingness, distaste, or the like:

good article...don't know how many of you actually know or have known transgender folks, I've had a family member go though this and have met other folks through the years, in my experience there are other serious mental issues related and I'm not sure that the gender confusion causes the mental issues or the mental issues cause the gender confusion but like many thing there is usually a significant life event that triggers final action.....in the case I'm closest with everything changed pretty suddenly after the loss of another family member...there was a lot of substance abuse involved which increased after the begining of the transformation and this person was very confident and fully expected the spouse to stay with them as a married couple after their transformation as the article points out....not to mention the incredible pain and agony the spouse went through





"For the last decade, the American public has been told that sexual orientation is a fixed, immutable characteristic — like skin color. Now we’re told that “gender identity” is much the same. Psychology is fixed. Biology has to adjust. But observe the lamentation in the video: A transgender boy wants other boys to change, to reject the “born this way” of their own sexuality for the open-mindedness of “getting physical” with a girl with a penis. Claire is desperate for their psychology to change, for their minds to open, and for their sexual identity to change in response to Claire’s allegedly unchangeable desires."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...not-liberation

"I see conservatives much more willing to limit the rights of others and their own followers in order to maintain what they call Traditional Vaules "

If by 'rights' you mean those defined in the Constitution, then you are completely wrong.

If by 'rights' you mean made-up rights, then you might have a point.

"So in your world view allowing transgender to use the bathroom of the sex the identify with.. as taking your rights away "

It's taking the rights away from women who don't feel comfortable sharing a bathroom or a shower facility, with a man. You can't grasp that? If you are comfortable with something, then that means everyone else must be, too, or they are a hatemonger? There can be no reasonable disagreement with what you feel? But you say my side is taking away rights.

"people shouldn't be shot or beat by police no matter how much they may or may not deserve it "

OK, so if someone 'deserves' to be shot by police, they shouldn't be? So if someone shoots at a cop, you don't think the cop should shoot back.

Whew...

It's amazing how much time, energy and money has been wasted on a topic that will be easily fixed by just changing the damn bathroom door placard!!!

Frankly I don't give a crap about who uses the bathroom that I'm in, as long as whoever it is isn't touching me or broadcasting to the world that they are a "special person" that requires more consideration that everyone else.

Any clown that does that it destined for a down-n-dirty swirly!!!

looks like I left out unarmed my Fault
"people shouldn't be shot or beat by police no matter how much they may or may not deserve it "

Fear is the overriding emotion in cowardice. There are several other definitions of "coward" other than the one you give. There's this: "Cowardice is a trait wherein fear and excess self-concern override doing or saying what is right, good and of help to others or oneself in a time of need." And, regarding the word "courage" which is part of the definition you give here, there is this: "Courage is resistance to fear."

Here are a few of instances you accused conservatives of fear:

"Step back from the emoting and fear and look at the big picture."

""Conservatives are afraid of everything and everyone."

"The possibility of other justices not seeing the world as you do its terrifying."

"Wow can you 2 be any more afraid of black people"

Those quotes have a good deal of what resides in various definitions of cowardice.

I suspect the answer is YES....up to and until they find that the government at the time disagrees with them politically or morally and then the answer would be absolutely NO.

The Obama Admin is warning school districts that full access to both bathrooms and by extension locker rooms is a "civil right"

I suspect we can save a ton of money going forward by building only one unisex restroom and/or shower facility throughout our society, why even build separate facilities when we've learned that they not really necessary and since there truly is no anatomical difference between the sexes, only state of mind and a truly open state of mind(which is a societal requirement) would never recognize any differences anyway.... which will make us much better off...an probably more like Europe...which is a good thing

I wonder, if a future administration dictates through the Federal Agencies that the "right to life" is a "civil right" and that this extends to those in the womb.....would this be a problem for the folks who applaud Federal Dictates?...surely no one can argue that the "right to life" is a "civil right" or that the right to life trumps the right to end one or the right to privacy .......can they???

the pendulum swings....

like I thought, never called any one a coward if you see fear residing in various definitions cowardice thats on you..

I clearly defined the differences between Cowardice and fear as I see it ... and how I apply it:kewl:

Another thread that has jokers doing their best to describe and define the ugly transformation our Country has taken under the guidance of the current administration. To me it is a joke that we have to discuss this foolishness. Bruce Jenner goes from Olympic hero to reality tv hero and we,as a country, sacrifice our values to accomadate the flake. It is no wonder Trump is doing so well with the liberal whiners that have been bred into society setting the pace,anything is possible.
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Well if I commit a crime, I think I'm gonna feel more comfortable as a female And therefore would feel more comfortable in a female prison . Just saying
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At best, your application was biased, derogatory, or too loose to convey any definite meaning--as is, quite often the case in "interpretation," personal opinion, or incorrect or improper application.

I believe I said as the brain is concerned...

It's this simple. You're born a man, brain thinks you're a woman, you have your genitalia reworked, hormone therapy, you sound-think-look-dress-act like a woman...yet state law says you have to use the men's room.

God help you down south.

Is this what you want your son walking into when he goes to the public restroom?

That's not a transgender either !
That's not what this law is about .
This will allow you to use a woman's bathroom if you have a penis and are heterosexual but identify as a women .
Like Bruce Jenner
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It is what these laws are about...it's everything.

Except the feelings of those that expect privacy and normalcy
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Key phrase there is have your genitalia reworked.....if you can still write your name in the snow, you're a dude.....enjoy the use of the urinals.
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In what context would you want your son walking into this?

Spence has confused offspring just from observing Daddy.
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It's this simple...you can do all those things, but YOU ARE STILL A MAN. Your chromosomes say you are a man.

And what none of you has touched upon, presumably because you can't argue that I'm wrong, is this...if you open up the ladies room to men who are trans, you cannot then prevent perverts and voyers from saying they are a tran, simply to gain access to the ladies rooms. So, regrettably, a small number of trans might have to be inconvenienced, to safeguard the privacy/safety of everyone else. We all have to make sacrifices for others.